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That actually makes sense in a bizarre way - fantasy vs. I kind of get it. But when I think of people pretending to have sex with dragons Trias11 on Aug 27, [—]. Offer toys in all black perhaps? Or maybe Stripe changed their minds about having you guys as customers and made up a reason for you to leave. I'd guess the opposite, from the story. Sadly mass adoption is a bit more distant. What they say are principles turn out to be just a blob of preferences that change with the direction of the wind.

And quite frankly, Stripe is big enough these days to push back hard against Wells Fargo, if they really wanted to. Wells Fargo definitely does not want to lose the Stripe account. As most things in life there is shared responsibility there. Apparently now the rules are no adult things, or anything moderately related to adult content now, Real pain because Stripe are one of the better providers to integrate with :.

Out of curiosity Have they imposed a rolling reserve, and if so, how much and how long is it? We need all platform providers, such as payment utilities, to stop bringing their personal morals and politics to the table.

I'm not sure it's a given that "government provided equivalents" would be less political or culturally slow-moving, as it were than the situation now. I also had not considered that the banking sector is lightly regulated. Are you suggesting a re-envisioning of the banking sector as a sort of public utility? NotASithLord on Aug 28, [—].

Can I ask who this high-risk processor is? What colors were beyond the pale pun intended for them? Looks like we need a Stripe for high risk industry? This is the best thing I've read all week. Username checks out Thanks for sharing. Since, I know a friend in this industry, let me explain what's going on here.

Yes, OnlyFans uses Stripe, but that's not the entire story. If you pass a certain chargeback threshold in the adult industry, your account is terminated, and no payment processor will do business with you. To reduce the likelihood of passing that chargeback threshold and being banned, OnlyFans uses "cascading payments", which essentially load balances the payments across multiple payment processors in order to reduce their chargeback ratios across their merchant accounts.

The payment is either processed by Stripe, Securion, CCBill the leading payment processor for adult , or another company. I think Stripe is there for models on the site who don't sell adult content.

OnlyFans probably does a check to see if the page is adult-related and if it is, then routes it to the correct payment processor. Chargeback ratio's are per account, but also have a minimum absolute threshold. In a past life I worked for a place who had a few hundred processing accounts to load balance it all out because their chargeback rates were way too high. If an account gets close, you just don't use it for a month, or you throw a bunch of "safe" recurring charges at it to dilute it, or you hold a batch and send them through right before the rollover.

Lots of ways to play number games. Most of the execs did go to prison though, so don't take this as advice, but to be fair, the processors are the ones who told them to use those tactics. Don't tease us like that! Sounds like a fantastic blog story. It's even better than you think. In the process two state AG's lost their careers, multiple US senators were implicated, a bank collapsed, there was kidnapping, human trafficking and drug running, and in the end created urban legends of gold bars being buried in the mountains to hide it from being seized by the feds.

That guy played a role in the documentary Sons of Perdition , rescuing "lost boys" from the fundamentalist mormons.

Sort of. I'd read that sometime after the movie release he was exposed as some sort of fraudster but this story just gets crazier They went to prison for load balancing, or how does this relate? The technical reason was bank fraud for all the shell corporations they set up in the process. The bank claimed they had no idea they were all related, even though every application had the owners name on the paperwork.

To be clear, it was a bad company. So long as they were making money, and chargebacks make them a lot of money, they were happy. In my opinion the people running the company were just naive enough to not know how to cover their asses as well as the money guys. The business was just run of the mill "get rich on google" and "free government grant" garbage that was common in the 's.

Ironically, they made so much money doing their regular business the owner bought a small US based bank and was running online poker processing through it. When "black friday" in the poker world happened, the bank failed and everything fell apart, but so far as I know, no one involved was ever charged with anything related.

PeterisP on Aug 27, [—]. You can direct most of the payments towards the cheap-but-prudish processors, and the really adult stuff towards a processor that accepts almost anything but is more expensive.

You could in theory do some risk analysis and put the ones with the highest risk into the providers where you had the lowest chargeback. I wonder if they do do that. In Germany there's a credit rating agency that more or less has a monopoly, and everyone has more or less a profile with data supplied by companies who've dealt with them commercially e.

But sometimes their algorithm would also try to predict the chances of people not paying bills by things like the ZIP code where they live It spreads the chargebacks across multiple processors, who don't talk to each other so don't know about the chargebacks on the other processors. That still does not affect the ratio. Maybe the confounding factor here is that the term "load balance" could be extremely unsuitable for onlyfans' processing logic; e.

How is any given transaction distinguished as being risky or non-risky? Just off the top of my head, they'd have chargeback rate per-performer and per-customer.

Or they may have some kind of internal scoring system that rates how "porn-y" a given performer is - maybe that correlates to chargeback rate. Who knows - I'm just spitballing. But there are signals one could look at. If you've had multiple transactions with the same buyer with no chargebacks, you can probably put that buyer in a low risk pool. The individual processors are the ones who care about chargebacks, not VISA itself. So by spreading the processing among several of them, the number of chargebacks per processor are lower.

It's load balancing. Quarrel on Aug 27, [—]. This just isn't true. Yes, you can be pinged by the processor, but mostly because they're worried about the CC networks pinging them. Also lower is the number of transactions. The ratio stays the same. From my experience in the adult industry, the processor cared more about the total than the percentage. Stripe is cheaper than CCBill, so it makes sense to send more that way when you can. Exuma on Aug 27, [—]. Would anyone have more info on this? Greatly appreciate it.

Nothing stops you from saving card info to your payment processor s without actually charging it. To pull that off, they'd have to technically process the card info, which puts them in the scope for PCI compliance. By that point, I don't know why they'd send card info to 3 processors especially when they know, at that point, which processor they're gonna process it with. It would just make more sense to send it to the 1 processor the code ends up deciding to use.

With stripe. Stripe returns an identifier which you can use in the future to charge the card. Assuming other payment processors work similarly, you could easily send the credit card details to multiple payment processors directly from the browser to the payment processors, and then store the card identifiers from each processor not the card number in your database to charge it at a later date. The merchant cannot see or intercept that card info, during or after transmission, and thus cannot send it to another processor at least not using the same payment card input boxes.

Ah yes, Stripe. I was thinking of Stripe. I can't think of any payment processor that would allow this without 3 separate entries. They would be upset or bring you into PCI scope if you were modifying or tampering with their single input SDK to send cardholder data elsewhere.

Dont know about Stripe but Braintree has a forwarding API where the card details go to Braintree then Braintree forwards that data to another payment gateway you have signed up for, the other payment gateway sends a token to braintree which forwards that token to you.

Then you have an option to make the payment on Braintree or the other payment gateway using that gateway's token. Very smart. Thanks a lot for the reply here.

So Stripe manually checks the websites and sees exactly what they are being used for, as long as Stripe itself is not being used for the adult stuff, it's fine, and you can use other providers for the adult content? Still sounds like OnlyFans has some custom agreement with Stripe and a small player would get banned from using Stripe as soon as they see nudity on the site.

Rapzid on Aug 27, [—]. That sounds pretty reasonable; Stripe must be in a trusting arrangement with OnlyFans to do the right thing there. In EU they do, and if a string, or image on the site is not 'okay', you get denied for processing. And that's website wide, not just a single page. So in that line, I don't understand how stripe does this 'on the radar'.

How would the bank even know that transactions for adult-content pages were routed away from it? I'm guessing it would be negotiated terms between all three parties. Onlyfans ensures in their contract that they only route non-adult payments to Stripe, Stripe tells Wells Fargo to chill. Maybe some audits along the way to keep WF happy.

There are likely further legal and pearl-clutchy reasons that combine to just out and out ban. Anecdote: we talked with every payment processor around for a product we were making that involved storing and spending value from a digital wallet. Last ditch effort was Stripe, who said: sure! They said: sure! Did it a third time higher up for diligence, and finally just came to the conclusion they have different priorities and are getting big enough to use their scale to throw some weight around for all the small merchants.

Amex doesn't allow adult. There's a bit more nuance there, as the rules actually come from the bank issuing your merchant account, rather than some master "Visa" entity. So if you're a big player in the adult game you're going to work to find the right banks willing to issue you merchant accounts. Those banks will also have a compliance department which will look at your content and make sure it's inline with what they're willing to allow.

If you want to make adult content where consensual adults do things together there's one group of banks you can go to. If you want to make niche content with acted out violence and such you're going to find a much smaller group of banks willing to issue you merchant accounts.

Or possibly no banks at all. It's interesting that the thing deciding what adult content will be easily monetizable on the internet is small merchant account issuing banks. On the charging side I believe Stripe uses Wells Fargo, which has pretty strict rules.

Source: worked for one of the large players in the adult market a while back. Some info may be dated. Note: one of the fun things about credit cards is that Visa and MC are issued by banks, and Amex is issued by Amex. There was a new fraud style a few years ago that amex was able to lock down pretty quick due to its centralized nature, while Visa and MC had a harder time. Note2: I may define fun differently than you. Visa is absolutely a master entity that dictates nearly everything including consumer credit reporting requirements and minimum credit lines.

As pointed out, the banks also have a say. And banks are notoriously risk-averse and prudish. It's much easier for them to say "no" than "yes". For anyone, watch the movie "Yes man", with Jim Carrey.

It's a run of the mile chick flick, but the bit about banks, which is fairly at beginning, it portraits the "we prefer to say NO" policy of banks very accurate. Often, when the market doesn't provide an essential gateway service to a law-abiding subpopulation, some sort of 'public option' is proposed. Not enough low- or no-cost private education, offer public schools. Public transport. Should the government offer a 'public option' payment-processor of last resort, with guaranteed service for all legal but unpopular businesses?

A service that couldn't reject camgirls, weed-sellers, Alex Jones, gun shops, etc? Seems the idea has had some revival recently. I'd love a public competitor to America's privatized financial system. Municipal banking is also starting to come back in vogue. And why not? Why should Wall St. That's just silly. Noos on Aug 27, [—]. You have this already. It's called "using checks and money orders. Banks can and will close your account for any reason under the Sun.

How do you write a check or receive one without a bank account? I'm not familiar enough with money orders, but I assume the same applies. Then, on top of all of that, you can't run a business through a personal account. So you still require a business type bank account, and the above options are terrible for any eCommerce site, which is pretty much the only kind of business that will be discussed here on HN.

You can get a money order without a bank account. There's often a limit on the amount, so in some cases you may need to buy several in order to amass the full balance. You may also need to show ID. You can also cash a money order without a bank account. Exactly, modern e-commerce convenience requires credit-card-equivalent payment mechanisms. The market is afraid to provide them to unpopular, but legal services.

Earning a living is an important human right. We call this Bitcoin. Many of the rules aren't rules. We ran a travel company and used Stripe in the past, which is also one of the disallowed industries. This, one of the biggest blinkers technically-inclined founders have is that they forget or ignore that so much is relationship driven. Those blinkers are called "not being utterly insane".

The whole model of disruption is seeing a stupid practice saying. Seriously that is why honor based lending died to banks centuries ago. Relationship driven is a fucking stupid way to do finance. Finance is totally relationship driven and 'honor systems' isn't really a good example of it.

My bank waives fees on everything because of my personal friendly relationship with my banker. They gave me preferred terms of my mortgage rate because of my formal relationship - it wasn't just the product of a formula at the end of the banker's computer screen.

But my point is more broad - API agreements come to mind as an example, just because that is a space I've played in prior jobs. Yeah, they have a relationship and got a dispensation. That's an ideal. At the end of the day these are human-run industries, relationships are a big part of that. Yeah this is something I think a lot of people in this thread are missing: OnlyFans is probably big enough that they can negotiate their contract with Stripe.

How do you find out what payment processor s a given site uses? I know that some provide methods whereby a site can have the actual payment entry form served and processed by the payment processor instead of by the site's own server, so you'd be able to see from the user's end where they payment is actually being processed. I've never done a survey, but just anecdotally most sites I've encountered seem to not be using that option.

Their payment entry form comes from their own site and posts back to it, where their own back-end handles dealing with their payment processor's API. Using the method where the user interacts directly with the payment processor does have the advantage that it simplifies PCI compliance.

If your systems never even see the credit card, just receiving a token from the payment processor at the end of the transaction that you can use to initiate subsequent on-file or recurring transactions, most of PCI goes away for you. On the other hand, that also means that you are stuck with that payment processor for on-file or recurring transactions for that customer.

Your token from payment processor X is completely worthless for doing charges at payment processor Y. If I was in a business that has a significantly above average risk of running into payment processor trouble so I might need to change processors, I'd want to store the credit cards myself.

That makes it possible to change payment processors without having to get all of your subscription customers to come back and re-enter credit card information [1]. I'm not sure if that will still be possible if the Visa stored credential framework ever actually becomes required. Briefly, under the SCF requirements when you store a credit card, you have to send a flag to Visa with the transaction saying you are storing it. On subsequent on-file or recurring transactions, you have to send a reference to the transaction that stored the card.

The problem is that you reference that transaction by sending Visa's transaction number. But Visa's number for transactions is generally not the transaction number you get from your payment processor. The payment processor has its own transaction numbers and those are what you see. Not sure about Discover and Amex.

It was supposed to become mandatory something like two or three years ago, but payment processors kept asking for extensions. I'm a developer so looking at what kind of request the application is doing when interacting with anything involving payments. In the case of OnlyFans it was easy as they make direct requests to Stripe.

In other cases, I've looked at the data structures stored in the current page by using the JS console and compare it to the API docs of various payment processors. I'm not a web developer but I always assumed that happened on the backend, so it wouldn't be visible. I guess not? You are only allowed to collect it for a specific transaction, and are required to forget it when that transaction is complete.

That can't be right. I entered my credit card information once into uber eats and I can buy food whenever without entering a CCV and my credit card is immediately charged. If this were true s of large companies would not be PCI compliant. JoeMalt on Aug 28, [—]. Storing the CVV permanently is indeed strictly forbidden. The CVV is not used for purchases on a stored card. Do they literally embed Stripe JS? Is this a PCI loophole, or is there some technical barrier preventing the third-party site from getting access?

Stripe JS uses an iframe for card number which blocks the site from accessing the number. And the only way to access the card number is either a security hole in the iframe message handling or in the browser. Not really.

It's true that the main site parent of the iframe wouldn't normally have access to the card numbers, but there's nothing preventing you from replacing the iframe entirely. There isn't an "address bar" for iframes, and people certainty aren't manually checking the address by right-clicking, so there's a very high chance you can get away with it.

Even if some user checked and noticed the iframe was missing, there are enough sites that don't use iframes for payment processing ie. If it's important to know what site you're looking at in a top level page, the same thing should apply to an embedded one.

Often when I learn about web security, it seems like the user agent abdicates responsibility to be an agent for the user. Probably a case where it's more obvious in hindsight why this is important, but it could still be retrofitted. Maybe there's a better way, but for example, a browser could make the address bar a breadcrumb widget using multiple URLs to depict the iframe nesting. How do you prevent a website from faking the address bar?

The only reason that you can trust address bars right now is that the website can't draw outside the content frame. There's already attacks on mobile[1] involving fake address bars because the address bar can be hidden, allowing the site to draw a fake address bar in its place. The only secure way to do it would be to opening another window like when you try to use sign in with google , but that still has the issue that lots of legacy sites won't use this security feature, so users will still happily enter in their credit card numbers.

Well, my suggestion was to add additional URL s into the same address bar that already exists at the top. Cancelled my card immediately. My bank gave this number and when you call it, it says LF and something dealing with health. Yeah right. They started with a penny and then went from there just to see if the card would work. I hate thieves. I left them a message and told them I was come for them.

This is a fake number and it comes with a site called onlyfans. They stole money from my account and thankfully the bank caught it. They never called me but it's the number that my bank shows connected with the stolen funds and it's out of Illinois. Robert T replies to Janice. Janice and Michael. I had the same experience. My sister was admitted to hospital emergency.

Those are the probing charges before they go in for the kill. Stopped it in time. Why can't the authorities go after these crooks.

Tygerkat replies to Robert T. Well, did you report them to the authorities? They can't go after "these crooks" if they don't know about them. This number is associated with credit card theft.

Bank finally caught it but wow, whoever they are they even had my address! Scary and costly.

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How to hide followers on OnlyFans? In the settings, go to security and find show fans count on your profile to hide it. Can anyone see my IP address on OnlyFans? Is OnlyFans illegal? FizzHum Content Team. You May Also Like View all. While the law was never formally repealed, in a U. District Judge released a report declaring it to be "facially unconstitutional and unenforceable". I'm genuinely mind blown by this. What are the ownership restrictions? Is it blanket or just to certain categories or sizes of toys?

The clerk on duty at the time was arrested and may have had to register as a sex offender. What the fuck? Texas one seems like it was ruled unenforceable in You can have a blanket.

OJFord on Aug 27, [—]. If that is the reason for the former, it's probably the reason for the latter too. What I'm curious about is whether or not OnlyFans has bribed off Wells Fargo -- I mean it could be in a legal way for financial services that are non existent. Ergo, Wells Fargo doesn't complain anymore. How much would that need to be with Wells Fargo? Does OnlyFans make enough to afford million per year? HenryBemis on Aug 27, [—]. I read this on some legit news site a few days ago: apparently Bella Thorne, a formed Disney actress-turned-pornstar?

And OnlyFans has people of that "caliber" like Mrs Thorne? They won't complain for a long time. She had tens of millions of followers before joining OnlyFans. I think "nobody" was relative here. I had never heard of her before this thread and looking at her career she isn't a nobody but she is very far from being an A-lister. You should have seen the massive amount of Bella thorne posts online before her onlyfans.

Tons of 4chan threads, reddit posts, and subreddits for her pics, etc. Though, the same could be said for any celeb, she was definitely a "thing". Most of her popularity online had nothing to do with her acting career at all. She is also not a porn star. None of this content is nude.

The running joke is that there are pap photos showing more skin than what people paid for here. CapricornNoble on Aug 29, [—]. HenryBemis on Aug 28, [—]. Her achievement in life is eating well, working out, having a nice looking body, being genetically or surgically blessed with a good appearance and shows off her body parts for money.

I do not want any harm to come to her go to hell, drop dead, get sick, etc. I wish her a long and healthy life. The only "positive" thing in her towards contributing to a better humanity is the words of donating to charity aka tax breaks. Having sex in front of a camera is a profession, I get that, but she is still a nobody.

A nobody with money. But still a nobody in my book. I am not forcing anyone to have the same criteria of what I consider as "decent human being" that I have developed as my silly? Nothing negative for her, but definitely nothing positive for her either.

Just a zero. That is the function of puritanism. Consider it as a product: Want to look or feel virtuous even though you are a horrible selfish person? Are you not openly having sex with more than one person? With prudity you are qualified! It works by reducing virtue into who you have sex with there by freeing you to commit crimes while considering yourself righteous and decent!

Order today! We had a client that is a big strip club in the area that started selling t-shirts with the name of the club Stripe banned it just a few months after launch. DebtDeflation on Aug 27, [—]. Like flesh colored was ok but definitely not green ones or something? The inverse of this. I understand that your products were designed to depict the body parts of mythological and fantastical creatures, and we have indicated this to our banking partners in an effort to advocate for continuing to support your business here on Stripe.

As a result of these discussions, our banking partners have agreed that they are willing to continue supporting your business as long as you are not selling products that are colored such that they might be mistaken for human flesh. I have no skin in this game, but I have to wonder who is making these decisions and what their thought process is. What is the threat model, exactly? What eventuality is the bank seeking to avoid? Are there edge-case regulatory issues at play?

Are there moral-consumer groups out there that run public pressure campaigns against banks that transact on adult toys that look too realistic? Is a corporate lawyer somewhere worried about photos of a realistic-looking appendage used explicitly being tied back to the bank -- but if it's painted green they can plausibly argue "hey it's definitely not real, look it's green!

This just feels like such a spectacularly arbitrary line that I'm fascinated by the thought process. I know exactly how this happens because I have to deal with this all the time. Here's my guess: The boss ten years ago now dead said if it looks like a penis and is the right color of a penis then we can't sell it.

Therefore, you gotta change the color. CarbyAu on Aug 27, [—]. What I find weird is the thought process of: - pretend to fuck a human? Don't want to encourage that.

Sure, why not Who is conservative enough to want to discourage the one thing literally required for humanity to survive; and yet is OK with mythical creatures?!? Usually there's overlap in those "designs" with the Someone on a moralizing crusade would probably label the company as supporting bestiality.

You should tell them to judge mythological sex toys not by the color of their skin, but by the context of their character. Wow, this is hysterical! I wonder if this would ever happen in Europe. Do you know about Klarna? I don't know about Europe in general, but my brick and mortar bank one of the major banking chain in France with an agency in pretty much any city of over people was perfectly fine with adult things being sold using one their group's online platform as long as I was ok with their elevated rates.

I've seen lately that they're also responsible for payment processing on dorcel. Interesting question. I checked out Klarna and Adyen which seems to be the most popular in Europe right now.

Klarna lists "Adult, sexual or pornographic products and services, including live web cam" as not allowed. Both of them expand it more to cover everything possible around adult content and the like. And yet Whether they fly under "novelty items" or not, idk. My guess is that the list of restricted things just means that you should talk to them first. Strange, I would never have thought banks would have such moral hangups. If you would read the next few words of my comment you would see that this is correctly reflected.

I'm crying. This is so ridiculous it crossed the line from appalling into hilarious. You haven't sued over this which is a shame. Think of the comical email threads that would've been unearthed during the discovery process! Wells-Fargo deserve to go bankrupt, but I believe the problem is the non-uniform nature of the law around sex toys. Texas, for example, still has an idiotic law on the books that possession of more than 6 dildoes is illegal.

Because of that, many online sex toy shops simply will not ship anything to Texas. The law has been struck down in US Federal court, but there have been convictions in state courts despite that. Thanks for sharing, that article is well worth the read. That actually makes sense in a bizarre way - fantasy vs. I kind of get it. But when I think of people pretending to have sex with dragons Trias11 on Aug 27, [—].

Offer toys in all black perhaps? Or maybe Stripe changed their minds about having you guys as customers and made up a reason for you to leave. I'd guess the opposite, from the story. Sadly mass adoption is a bit more distant. What they say are principles turn out to be just a blob of preferences that change with the direction of the wind.

And quite frankly, Stripe is big enough these days to push back hard against Wells Fargo, if they really wanted to. Wells Fargo definitely does not want to lose the Stripe account. As most things in life there is shared responsibility there. Apparently now the rules are no adult things, or anything moderately related to adult content now, Real pain because Stripe are one of the better providers to integrate with :.

Out of curiosity Have they imposed a rolling reserve, and if so, how much and how long is it? We need all platform providers, such as payment utilities, to stop bringing their personal morals and politics to the table. I'm not sure it's a given that "government provided equivalents" would be less political or culturally slow-moving, as it were than the situation now. I also had not considered that the banking sector is lightly regulated.

Are you suggesting a re-envisioning of the banking sector as a sort of public utility? NotASithLord on Aug 28, [—]. Can I ask who this high-risk processor is? What colors were beyond the pale pun intended for them?

Looks like we need a Stripe for high risk industry? This is the best thing I've read all week. Username checks out Thanks for sharing. Since, I know a friend in this industry, let me explain what's going on here.

Yes, OnlyFans uses Stripe, but that's not the entire story. If you pass a certain chargeback threshold in the adult industry, your account is terminated, and no payment processor will do business with you. To reduce the likelihood of passing that chargeback threshold and being banned, OnlyFans uses "cascading payments", which essentially load balances the payments across multiple payment processors in order to reduce their chargeback ratios across their merchant accounts.

The payment is either processed by Stripe, Securion, CCBill the leading payment processor for adult , or another company. I think Stripe is there for models on the site who don't sell adult content. OnlyFans probably does a check to see if the page is adult-related and if it is, then routes it to the correct payment processor. Chargeback ratio's are per account, but also have a minimum absolute threshold.

In a past life I worked for a place who had a few hundred processing accounts to load balance it all out because their chargeback rates were way too high. If an account gets close, you just don't use it for a month, or you throw a bunch of "safe" recurring charges at it to dilute it, or you hold a batch and send them through right before the rollover. Lots of ways to play number games. Most of the execs did go to prison though, so don't take this as advice, but to be fair, the processors are the ones who told them to use those tactics.

Don't tease us like that! Sounds like a fantastic blog story. It's even better than you think. In the process two state AG's lost their careers, multiple US senators were implicated, a bank collapsed, there was kidnapping, human trafficking and drug running, and in the end created urban legends of gold bars being buried in the mountains to hide it from being seized by the feds. That guy played a role in the documentary Sons of Perdition , rescuing "lost boys" from the fundamentalist mormons.

Sort of. I'd read that sometime after the movie release he was exposed as some sort of fraudster but this story just gets crazier They went to prison for load balancing, or how does this relate?

The technical reason was bank fraud for all the shell corporations they set up in the process. The bank claimed they had no idea they were all related, even though every application had the owners name on the paperwork. To be clear, it was a bad company. So long as they were making money, and chargebacks make them a lot of money, they were happy. In my opinion the people running the company were just naive enough to not know how to cover their asses as well as the money guys.

The business was just run of the mill "get rich on google" and "free government grant" garbage that was common in the 's. Ironically, they made so much money doing their regular business the owner bought a small US based bank and was running online poker processing through it. When "black friday" in the poker world happened, the bank failed and everything fell apart, but so far as I know, no one involved was ever charged with anything related. PeterisP on Aug 27, [—].

You can direct most of the payments towards the cheap-but-prudish processors, and the really adult stuff towards a processor that accepts almost anything but is more expensive. You could in theory do some risk analysis and put the ones with the highest risk into the providers where you had the lowest chargeback.

I wonder if they do do that. In Germany there's a credit rating agency that more or less has a monopoly, and everyone has more or less a profile with data supplied by companies who've dealt with them commercially e.

But sometimes their algorithm would also try to predict the chances of people not paying bills by things like the ZIP code where they live It spreads the chargebacks across multiple processors, who don't talk to each other so don't know about the chargebacks on the other processors. That still does not affect the ratio.

Maybe the confounding factor here is that the term "load balance" could be extremely unsuitable for onlyfans' processing logic; e. How is any given transaction distinguished as being risky or non-risky?

Just off the top of my head, they'd have chargeback rate per-performer and per-customer. Or they may have some kind of internal scoring system that rates how "porn-y" a given performer is - maybe that correlates to chargeback rate.

Who knows - I'm just spitballing. But there are signals one could look at. If you've had multiple transactions with the same buyer with no chargebacks, you can probably put that buyer in a low risk pool.

The individual processors are the ones who care about chargebacks, not VISA itself. So by spreading the processing among several of them, the number of chargebacks per processor are lower.

It's load balancing. Quarrel on Aug 27, [—]. This just isn't true. Yes, you can be pinged by the processor, but mostly because they're worried about the CC networks pinging them. Also lower is the number of transactions.

The ratio stays the same. From my experience in the adult industry, the processor cared more about the total than the percentage. Stripe is cheaper than CCBill, so it makes sense to send more that way when you can.

Exuma on Aug 27, [—]. Would anyone have more info on this? Greatly appreciate it. Nothing stops you from saving card info to your payment processor s without actually charging it. To pull that off, they'd have to technically process the card info, which puts them in the scope for PCI compliance. By that point, I don't know why they'd send card info to 3 processors especially when they know, at that point, which processor they're gonna process it with. It would just make more sense to send it to the 1 processor the code ends up deciding to use.

With stripe. Stripe returns an identifier which you can use in the future to charge the card. Assuming other payment processors work similarly, you could easily send the credit card details to multiple payment processors directly from the browser to the payment processors, and then store the card identifiers from each processor not the card number in your database to charge it at a later date.

The merchant cannot see or intercept that card info, during or after transmission, and thus cannot send it to another processor at least not using the same payment card input boxes. Ah yes, Stripe. I was thinking of Stripe. I can't think of any payment processor that would allow this without 3 separate entries.

They would be upset or bring you into PCI scope if you were modifying or tampering with their single input SDK to send cardholder data elsewhere. Dont know about Stripe but Braintree has a forwarding API where the card details go to Braintree then Braintree forwards that data to another payment gateway you have signed up for, the other payment gateway sends a token to braintree which forwards that token to you.

Then you have an option to make the payment on Braintree or the other payment gateway using that gateway's token. Very smart. Thanks a lot for the reply here. So Stripe manually checks the websites and sees exactly what they are being used for, as long as Stripe itself is not being used for the adult stuff, it's fine, and you can use other providers for the adult content?

Still sounds like OnlyFans has some custom agreement with Stripe and a small player would get banned from using Stripe as soon as they see nudity on the site. Rapzid on Aug 27, [—].

That sounds pretty reasonable; Stripe must be in a trusting arrangement with OnlyFans to do the right thing there. In EU they do, and if a string, or image on the site is not 'okay', you get denied for processing. And that's website wide, not just a single page. So in that line, I don't understand how stripe does this 'on the radar'. How would the bank even know that transactions for adult-content pages were routed away from it? I'm guessing it would be negotiated terms between all three parties.

Onlyfans ensures in their contract that they only route non-adult payments to Stripe, Stripe tells Wells Fargo to chill. Maybe some audits along the way to keep WF happy. There are likely further legal and pearl-clutchy reasons that combine to just out and out ban. Anecdote: we talked with every payment processor around for a product we were making that involved storing and spending value from a digital wallet. Last ditch effort was Stripe, who said: sure!

They said: sure! Did it a third time higher up for diligence, and finally just came to the conclusion they have different priorities and are getting big enough to use their scale to throw some weight around for all the small merchants. Amex doesn't allow adult. There's a bit more nuance there, as the rules actually come from the bank issuing your merchant account, rather than some master "Visa" entity.

So if you're a big player in the adult game you're going to work to find the right banks willing to issue you merchant accounts. Those banks will also have a compliance department which will look at your content and make sure it's inline with what they're willing to allow. If you want to make adult content where consensual adults do things together there's one group of banks you can go to. If you want to make niche content with acted out violence and such you're going to find a much smaller group of banks willing to issue you merchant accounts.

Or possibly no banks at all. It's interesting that the thing deciding what adult content will be easily monetizable on the internet is small merchant account issuing banks.

On the charging side I believe Stripe uses Wells Fargo, which has pretty strict rules. Source: worked for one of the large players in the adult market a while back.

Some info may be dated. Note: one of the fun things about credit cards is that Visa and MC are issued by banks, and Amex is issued by Amex. There was a new fraud style a few years ago that amex was able to lock down pretty quick due to its centralized nature, while Visa and MC had a harder time. Note2: I may define fun differently than you. Visa is absolutely a master entity that dictates nearly everything including consumer credit reporting requirements and minimum credit lines.

As pointed out, the banks also have a say. And banks are notoriously risk-averse and prudish. It's much easier for them to say "no" than "yes". For anyone, watch the movie "Yes man", with Jim Carrey. It's a run of the mile chick flick, but the bit about banks, which is fairly at beginning, it portraits the "we prefer to say NO" policy of banks very accurate. Often, when the market doesn't provide an essential gateway service to a law-abiding subpopulation, some sort of 'public option' is proposed.

Not enough low- or no-cost private education, offer public schools. Public transport. Should the government offer a 'public option' payment-processor of last resort, with guaranteed service for all legal but unpopular businesses?

A service that couldn't reject camgirls, weed-sellers, Alex Jones, gun shops, etc? Seems the idea has had some revival recently. I'd love a public competitor to America's privatized financial system. Municipal banking is also starting to come back in vogue.

And why not? Why should Wall St. That's just silly. Noos on Aug 27, [—]. You have this already. It's called "using checks and money orders. Banks can and will close your account for any reason under the Sun. How do you write a check or receive one without a bank account? I'm not familiar enough with money orders, but I assume the same applies. Then, on top of all of that, you can't run a business through a personal account.

So you still require a business type bank account, and the above options are terrible for any eCommerce site, which is pretty much the only kind of business that will be discussed here on HN. You can get a money order without a bank account. There's often a limit on the amount, so in some cases you may need to buy several in order to amass the full balance.

You may also need to show ID. You can also cash a money order without a bank account. Exactly, modern e-commerce convenience requires credit-card-equivalent payment mechanisms. The market is afraid to provide them to unpopular, but legal services. Earning a living is an important human right. We call this Bitcoin. Many of the rules aren't rules. We ran a travel company and used Stripe in the past, which is also one of the disallowed industries.

This, one of the biggest blinkers technically-inclined founders have is that they forget or ignore that so much is relationship driven. Those blinkers are called "not being utterly insane". The whole model of disruption is seeing a stupid practice saying. Seriously that is why honor based lending died to banks centuries ago. Relationship driven is a fucking stupid way to do finance. Finance is totally relationship driven and 'honor systems' isn't really a good example of it.

My bank waives fees on everything because of my personal friendly relationship with my banker. They gave me preferred terms of my mortgage rate because of my formal relationship - it wasn't just the product of a formula at the end of the banker's computer screen. But my point is more broad - API agreements come to mind as an example, just because that is a space I've played in prior jobs.

Yeah, they have a relationship and got a dispensation. That's an ideal. At the end of the day these are human-run industries, relationships are a big part of that. Yeah this is something I think a lot of people in this thread are missing: OnlyFans is probably big enough that they can negotiate their contract with Stripe.

How do you find out what payment processor s a given site uses? I know that some provide methods whereby a site can have the actual payment entry form served and processed by the payment processor instead of by the site's own server, so you'd be able to see from the user's end where they payment is actually being processed. I've never done a survey, but just anecdotally most sites I've encountered seem to not be using that option.

Their payment entry form comes from their own site and posts back to it, where their own back-end handles dealing with their payment processor's API. Using the method where the user interacts directly with the payment processor does have the advantage that it simplifies PCI compliance. If your systems never even see the credit card, just receiving a token from the payment processor at the end of the transaction that you can use to initiate subsequent on-file or recurring transactions, most of PCI goes away for you.

On the other hand, that also means that you are stuck with that payment processor for on-file or recurring transactions for that customer. Your token from payment processor X is completely worthless for doing charges at payment processor Y. If I was in a business that has a significantly above average risk of running into payment processor trouble so I might need to change processors, I'd want to store the credit cards myself. That makes it possible to change payment processors without having to get all of your subscription customers to come back and re-enter credit card information [1].

I'm not sure if that will still be possible if the Visa stored credential framework ever actually becomes required. Briefly, under the SCF requirements when you store a credit card, you have to send a flag to Visa with the transaction saying you are storing it.

On subsequent on-file or recurring transactions, you have to send a reference to the transaction that stored the card. The problem is that you reference that transaction by sending Visa's transaction number. But Visa's number for transactions is generally not the transaction number you get from your payment processor.

The payment processor has its own transaction numbers and those are what you see. Not sure about Discover and Amex. It was supposed to become mandatory something like two or three years ago, but payment processors kept asking for extensions. I'm a developer so looking at what kind of request the application is doing when interacting with anything involving payments.

In the case of OnlyFans it was easy as they make direct requests to Stripe. In other cases, I've looked at the data structures stored in the current page by using the JS console and compare it to the API docs of various payment processors.

I'm not a web developer but I always assumed that happened on the backend, so it wouldn't be visible. I guess not? You are only allowed to collect it for a specific transaction, and are required to forget it when that transaction is complete. That can't be right. I entered my credit card information once into uber eats and I can buy food whenever without entering a CCV and my credit card is immediately charged.

If this were true s of large companies would not be PCI compliant. JoeMalt on Aug 28, [—]. Storing the CVV permanently is indeed strictly forbidden. The CVV is not used for purchases on a stored card. Do they literally embed Stripe JS? Is this a PCI loophole, or is there some technical barrier preventing the third-party site from getting access? Stripe JS uses an iframe for card number which blocks the site from accessing the number. And the only way to access the card number is either a security hole in the iframe message handling or in the browser.

Not really. It's true that the main site parent of the iframe wouldn't normally have access to the card numbers, but there's nothing preventing you from replacing the iframe entirely. There isn't an "address bar" for iframes, and people certainty aren't manually checking the address by right-clicking, so there's a very high chance you can get away with it. Even if some user checked and noticed the iframe was missing, there are enough sites that don't use iframes for payment processing ie.

If it's important to know what site you're looking at in a top level page, the same thing should apply to an embedded one. Often when I learn about web security, it seems like the user agent abdicates responsibility to be an agent for the user. Probably a case where it's more obvious in hindsight why this is important, but it could still be retrofitted.

Maybe there's a better way, but for example, a browser could make the address bar a breadcrumb widget using multiple URLs to depict the iframe nesting. How do you prevent a website from faking the address bar? The only reason that you can trust address bars right now is that the website can't draw outside the content frame.

There's already attacks on mobile[1] involving fake address bars because the address bar can be hidden, allowing the site to draw a fake address bar in its place. The only secure way to do it would be to opening another window like when you try to use sign in with google , but that still has the issue that lots of legacy sites won't use this security feature, so users will still happily enter in their credit card numbers.

Well, my suggestion was to add additional URL s into the same address bar that already exists at the top. Hence the breadcrumb widget.

My original motivation was to not wreck the layout of pages that are currently counting on the inside of the iframe to be big enough to hold all the expected content. But it also protects the additional URL s from being drawn over because you already can't draw over the address bar.

That mobile address bar hiding hack is pretty scary, though. Yeah that is true. I guess in the end you still have to trust the site unless it uses the stripe hosted checkout. Thanks, that makes sense. They're embedding more than JS. One of the easiest ways to ensure PCI compliance is never actually serving the credit card form from your server, and never seeing the response. Depends on the implementation, with Stripe you can embed their widgets directly on your website to save some development time, but you can also implement in the backend.

Even though you would implement it in the backend, there is usually some details leaking on purpose obviously to the frontend, like identifiers Stripes IDs are usually pretty easy to spot or even the structure of the data can tell you which provider. The contents of the request should hopefully be encrypted, but you can easily see where the request is going. Kuraj on Aug 27, [—]. Very often it is an IFrame with embedded content from the payment processor.

Onlyfans is a platform for content subscriptions. It just happens to be a popular platform for adult content. Also, it surely makes them a ton of money. Right and backpage was just a site for lonely singles looking to connect.

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